Has anyone else heard of this musical band? I heard an interview on NPR the other day with bassist Pete Wentz. Wow, what a disturbing interview.
What is most disturbing is the apparent influence these guys (well, should I use the term “guys?”) are having on teens.
Look at some of what was said in the interview:
Wentz doesn’t look like a typical rock star. He has inky black hair, a goofy grin and a predilection for wearing eyeliner and girls’ jeans on his alley-cat-skinny frame, and he kisses his male bandmates on stage. Somehow, Wentz makes all of this mainstream.
“I started wearing it because I felt like it tested some boundaries,” Wentz explains. “Smear it. Because if you’re a guy, you don’t want your makeup to look perfect.”
The frontman acknowledges his debts to David Bowie, Marilyn Manson and Kurt Cobain, his heroes in playful gender subversion.
“My whole point is I think there’s something in art where you should be making people feel uncomfortable.”
“I would never come out and say I’m gay, because I’m not gay,” Wentz says. “There’s part of me that kind of wishes I was gay, and I think that comes from anybody constantly wishing they were in the minority and constantly wants to be fighting everybody off.”
Isn’t it a great encouragement to know that our future “men” and “women” are under such an influence as this. Who knows, in a decade or so we may no longer need that sort of sex distinction language!
You can read the interview at NPR.
December 2, 2007 at 9:42 am
Storm in a teacup. Incidentally, Fall out boy are a great band. Smeared, or otherwise applied eyeliner on guys is SERIOUSLY old news! Its been in rock music for at least forty years, maybe longer if you count Little Richard. I think influencing people to believe some supreme being created the earth in 7 days as opposed to a rational scientific evolution however, WILL damage young minds in a much more subversive way.
December 2, 2007 at 9:38 pm
That’s 6 days, Kev. If you’re going to criticize something it helps to at least get the facts straight. Nothing worse than a second-hand skeptic.
By the way, if you’re looking for both science and rationality, don’t look too far into the evolutionary scheme. Neither have much to do with the religious presuppositionalism that is called evolution.
December 2, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Kev, I cannot comment on their music. I’ve never heard it. My point is about the undermining of masculinity apparent in their approach.
Of course you are right about the history of men wearing eyeliner etc. Probably even before Little Richard. I’m still not impressed that the length of its history is irrevelant to the rise of feminine men. Most honest social scientists will acknowledge the feminization of our culture.
Anyway, I am curious about rational and scientific evolution you referred to. By the way, Rob is correct–it was six days for creation. But, where is the rationality and scientific evidence for evolution?
Thanks for commenting.
December 3, 2007 at 6:12 am
6 days? Impressive. I wonder if I’m not masculine because I used to wear eyeliner on stage? This isnt anything to do with all those nasty Egyptians wearing kohl when the Israelites were fleeing, is it?
I’m not a scientist, so I’m sure you could tie me in knots, but I have to say the premise that we developed up the evolutionary scale over millenia is a damn sight more believeable than someone going “Right, lets have a bit of light…woah! there you go, there’s a guy…want a woman? let me just take that rib there, it wont hurt, I promise…”
December 3, 2007 at 8:57 am
I’m no scientist either–but I’m pretty sure I have a brain. Maybe I could tie you in knots, too–but that wouldn’t prove anything of any ultimate value. Nontheless, if you’re interested in going beyond both ad hominem and appeals to ridicule I’d be glad to lay aside my Taylor and Les Paul long enough to interact offline.
December 3, 2007 at 9:38 am
Hey, kevmoore, could you please explain the rational scientific evolution, and how it takes any less faith to believe something that’s not actually proven than it is to believe in a supreme being? Also, you mentioned Fall Out Boy are a great band….what is it that draws you to them?
December 3, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Yikes. Shock certainly has always been a part of the rock scene, but it never ceases to alarm. I can definitely see why their music is popular, from what I have heard. This is another case of seeking to exercise Christian discernment in all things. Thanks for your post, Les.
December 3, 2007 at 12:44 pm
(Mr. Looper, do you really have a Taylor and a Les Paul??)
December 3, 2007 at 1:27 pm
kevmoore, you bring up the tired and fallacious notion held by Darwinists that Evolutionary theory (macro evolution mind you, not micro) is based on scientific theory. As Laura points out, the Darwinist theory has not been observed and tested with scientific process. It is a belief system that has been stitched after the fact onto the frame of testable science. Darwin is nothing more than a theologian of a different stripe. Creationism and Darwinism are both beliefs that require faith.
And about Fall Out Boy, it is true that men in rock bands wearing makeup, girls’ jeans, dresses, etc. etc. is nothing new. I don’t think it’s a great idea for a guy to wear makeup, in fact I find it silly, but what bothers me more is that this kid says in the interview that he wishes he were gay, simply because of his desire to identify with minorities and have something to fight against. Seriously?? Interestingly enough, this minority cause for gay rights has become rather mainstream in it’s popularity, so I guess our bass player in question will have to find a new reason to get pissed off, and soon, before he becomes a pop cliche. In my opinion, this kid is sadly confused about what’s worth fighting for.
By the way, I refuse to take any band seriously that makes regular appearances on MTV’s Total Request Live, for whatever it’s worth. Joe Strummer would be ashamed (for those who are familiar with The Clash…)
December 3, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Well, guys I guess its horses for courses. Hey, loads of priests wear what most people would consider dresses, but I dont think them any less men because of it. Also, didnt I hear something about Christians in the States attacking people who had the DARWIN logo in a fish? Where’s the forgiveness, people? Anyway, I wish you all well, and as that great Irish comedian Dave Allen used to say “May your God go with you”
December 3, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Well, Kev–my offer still stands if you’re game. I suppose you could consider me, by your estimation, one who wears a dress (me being a Presbyterian minister). But I’m happy to know you wouldn’t consider me less of a man for it.
By the way, I wouldn’t lump you in a “a-few-misrepresent-the-rest-of-us” crowd; maybe you’ll consider the same thing this direction. I note that you’re an artist; would it make sense for me to reason that because John Wayne Gacy was also a “painter/artist”–I should conclude that you are homosexual serial killer, too? Or is it that all Jaycees are homosexual serial killers? Or…all Jaycees are painters….Or–maybe–all Jaycees are homosexual clowns?
And as for your wish–He does (Matt. 28:18-20)!
December 4, 2007 at 12:16 am
All,
thanks for the comments. I have been pretty busy today and just now getting back to the old blog.
It should be no surprise that I am a believer in God and in what some call creationism. That is right. I believe that God made everything out of nothing.
That is by faith. But, or rather and, evolution is a faith proposition as well. It is just faith in…..I’m not sure what or who. How would everything, or, anything ever have been or come into existence apart from a creator? If there was a big bang, where did the banger and bangee come from?
Anyway, God has revealed Himself in His Word, attested by so many proofs, anf He tells us where all this came from…Him.
Thanks for interacting. Keep dialoging.
December 4, 2007 at 12:33 am
Dad, in response to your mention of the big bang, I can blow that theory in four words…wait, six: 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics. 1) Energy is neither created nor destroyed. 2) Everything tends toward a state of disorder. Interesting that a series of explosions and mistakes could produce a universe that would destroy itself if its orbit were a fraction of a degree off. That’s my 2 physics cents.
December 4, 2007 at 1:14 am
Laura, a couple quotes to go along with your brilliant science:
“Evolution is largely a presupposition of an anti-supernatural mind.
Professor D.M.F. Watson once said in a broadcast, “evolution itself is accepted by zoologists, not because it has been observed to occur, or can be proved by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible.” [Lloyd-Jones, GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON p. 138 ]
In other words, people who refuse to believe that Creation was by a Supreme Being (due to their sin and resistance to being held accountable) have to come up with another alternative. That other alternative is evolution.”
“[creation] was not a haphazard development but it was the orderly work of a superior mind. In fact, one of the greatest arguments for God’s involvement in creation is the complexity of our world. The notion that all of this happened “by chance” is preposterous. Ravi Zacharias quotes Dr. John Polinghorne, A Quantum Physicist and President of Queens College in Cambridge.
In the early expansion of the universe there has to be a close balance between the expansive energy (driving things apart) and the force of gravity (pulling things together). If expansion dominated then matter would fly apart too rapidly for condensation into galaxies and stars to take place. Nothing interesting could happen in so thinly spread a world. On the other hand, if gravity dominated, the world would collapse in on itself again before there was time for the processes of life to get going. For us to be possible would require a balance between these two things that was so precise that it would be the same as aiming at a target an inch wide on the other side of the observable universe, twenty thousand millions light years away, and hitting the mark! “
December 4, 2007 at 2:00 am
Let’s get back to what’s REALLY important: Yes, Laura, I indeed have a Taylor and a Les Paul. I know I am not worthy–but that is what grace provides! My Les Paul has been with me for 27 years now–and it’s just getting to where I like it…
December 4, 2007 at 7:13 am
My partner is the painter, Im the musician-she’s also a Doctor of Physics and Mathematics, and she’s not sure about the Big Bang either, but she’s equally unsure that everything was made by a supreme being like a rabbit out of a hat, because, even if you do believe in God-where did HE come from? By the way, I really have no problem with people choosing to believe this, I really don’t, but I have a big problem with creationism being taught in schools. I also can’t believe in God as a merciful God- My Mother died at 52, A friend’s husband died ON CHRISTMAS DAY leaving two young girls aged 3 and 5. Suffer the little children? I dont think so. Plus Im sick of the violence that’s done in his name. This isn’t just Christians of course, Im taking about the whole lot of ya! Laura, and Les, Im sure you’re very, very clever, and thats nice. You ask what draws me to Fall Out Boy - I wouldn’t say I was drawn to them, I dont like a lot of new music, but I saw them getting a lot of flak and was curious enough to check them out, and I love “This Aint a scene its an Arms race.” Matt, I wouldn’t know about MTV being uncool, I dont have it, and anyway, MTV Europe is a travesty, it seems to be perpetual bling and gangsta stuff! Rob, you will always have my respect because you have a Les Paul! I’ll say my syonaras now, because its like opening the door to some Jehova’s Witnesses, it wears you down, man!
Peace.
December 4, 2007 at 9:29 am
Thanks, Kev–sorry about the mistake. She’s got talent. And, hey–you knocked on our door…!
As you head out, though, if you’d allow me a few parting words…
All philosophical, scientific and religious disciplines ultimately have to deal with the issue of the infinite. Sooner or later everyone comes face to face with the ultimate truth that something (or someone) infinite, eternal and unchangable has to be “in back” of all things. At this point there are really only two possibilities: Matter or God. Some, of course, have suggested a third possibility–that before the univese “happened” there was orginally nothing (hence Carl Sagan’s brilliant “scientific” statement, “But when you’ve got nothing there’s really a lot going on.”) As far as real intellectual integrity is concerned, only the previous two are in the running!
In the end, though, given these two options, it is hardly irrational to posit that the law-oriented, intricately detailed universe is the result of the design of a supreme, infinite, eternal and unchangable being.
The issue of God’s mercy is stickier–but not because he has to answer for himself. It’s actually the exact opposite. When we look at the world and insist that there could not be a mercifcul God, we are saying that we–finite, imperfect beings that we are–know what mercy really is–that we indeed are wise enough to make the judgments of what should and shouldn’t happen. How arrogant and foolish! Human history is filled with the error of that assumption–and that often includes those who used God as their impetus.
As a pastor I have seen and experienced personal loss and suffering like you have mentioned–and seen and heard the pronouncement that God is indeed merciful and good. I believe it, too. If indeed the God of the Bible is who we read him to be, the issue here is one of trusting his wisdom. He knows what I don’t–and I can leave the uneven ends and hurts of this world with him because he is infinitely, etrnally and unchangably wise. He showed he can be trusted ultimately in the Incarnation, where he entered personally into the world to redeem it–and sinners like me.
At any rate–there’s more that could be said, but you’ve been gracious to hang in there (if you’re still there) this far.
By the way, the Taylor ain’t chopped liver…
Peace, indeed. (Romans 5:1-11)
December 4, 2007 at 9:32 am
kevmoore,
I looked at your blog, and I like what you and your partner have done with the poetry, music and painting all being used in a single work of art. I’m sure you are clever as well, so I apologize for my tone at first. And I understand why you (and many, many others) would have a hard time believing in a merciful God…we live in a fallen world where death and violence (some done in his name) are everywhere. I just want you to know that while I am a Christian, I understand your point of view. There is hope, though.
December 4, 2007 at 10:45 am
On this we can agree, Laura, there is always Hope. Thanks for your kind words about what we do. Rob, thanks for your thoughts. (I go for the Les Paul because Im a rocker at heart!)
Just want to wish all the participants here a Merry Christmas, however we all choose to spend it.
December 4, 2007 at 12:12 pm
kevmoore, you pose some good questions, questions that deserve answers. I would email you directly but can’t seem to find a link on any of your websites. If you’re still reading, I would like to address your questions/comments point by point.
First: about creationism being taught in schools. As I mentioned before, a belief in creationism requires faith, as does a belief in Darwinian evolution, or agnostic Intelligent Design, for that matter. Why? Nobody was there. Science requires observation and experimentation. We can theorize about the causality of all things, we can hold beliefs about it, but at the end of the day, a Darwinian reading of the fossil record, micro evolution and the Big Bang are merely hypotheses, not proven scientific fact. I concede that the same can be said about creationism. My point is merely that both theories are philosophical concepts that require faith, either in the eternality of a God or the eternality of hydrogen atoms.
This is a bit of a tangent, but stay with me…what I am arguing for is that these are both philosophical belief systems that deserve equal play in public schools. I see no harm in teaching children both schools of thought. After all, we can’t really be strong in a belief on any given subject unless we first know our available options. A rejection of creationism as a viable, teachable option in school science classes is both un-democratic and obtuse.
Second: you raise some good questions on the existence of evil in this world. How indeed can a loving God let atrocities go by unpunished? Why is it, in the Christian world view, that some people are damned to hell while others are allowed into heaven? I’m not much of a theologian, and I will admit that there is still a lot I don’t know – God is after all beyond the scope of our full understanding, that is if he is powerful enough to create us and is eternal (without beginning or end and unfettered by the boundaries of time and space). What I can tell you is that God cannot be in the presence of evil. He hates it, it goes against his very nature. In Old Testament times, the Jews were not able to come into the inner parts of the temple; only priests were allowed, and this only occasionally, and after complex ceremonial cleansing. The priest was the conduit of intercession on behalf of the people.
After the life, death and resurrection of Christ, this barrier was no longer necessary. Christ became sin for us by living a perfect life, dying the death we deserve, and descending into hell. He thus bridged the gap forever between us and God. HOWEVER…though this message is preached the world over, it is only available to those with ears to here. God’s forgiveness and salvation is extended only to those of us who see our need for rescue from damnation.
Kev, have you ever made mistakes of which you are not proud? Any regrets? I think most people would say yes to this. Most people, in spite of this admission, don’t think they deserve death, and certainly not damnation. This brings me back to the nature of God: he cannot countenance evil. It is not a limitation of his character, but an aspect of his perfect omipotence. Perfection, by definition, cannot entertain the presence of imperfection, or it becomes less than perfect. The only way we can come near to God is if God dies and takes our punishment, which has thankfully been done and delivered.
The rest is mystery. Why doesn’t God just wipe out evil? He has some divine purpose that no one alive knows.
Thirdly: you mention the atrocities committed by Christians. I too am sick of what people do in the name of Christ. We need to carefully distinguish the difference between those who claim Christ and Christ himself. Nowhere in the Bible will one find the approval by God of senseless violence and hatred, yet the words of the Bible have been twisted by Hitler, Members of the Spanish Inquisition, Oliver Cromwell, The British Empire, and the fighters of the medieval Crusades, to name a few. I would recommend this letter that I wrote a couple years ago for the now-defunct secular culture/art pub Evil Monito (if you’re still reading!): http://www.evilmonito.com/020/letter/fromreaders.htm.
Anyway, sorry for the novel, you caught me during a slow week at the office! I would love to continue the conversation via email if you’re still awake.
December 4, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Oh, and Merry Christmas
December 4, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Actually, more atrocities have been committed in the name of atheism than in the name of Christ…just a thought.
December 4, 2007 at 1:04 pm
woops, broken link. This one works:
http://www.evilmonito.com/020/letter/fromreaders.htm
December 5, 2007 at 5:06 am
Bonjour everybody! I heard there were some compliments about my art here, so I came running! Thankyou very much to all the admirers of The Muse on the Rock!
December 5, 2007 at 7:35 am
Miki,
There were. Laura posted some. I looked at your website this morning, and while I am surely no art critic I liked a number of pieces I saw. Where was the Muse on the Rock?
December 5, 2007 at 10:00 am
Thank you for your visit Les, and the kind words to my paintings. The Muse on the Rock is Kev Moore’s blog, where he presents some joined artwork, connecting paintings , music, prose and poetry. I am sorry not to have mentioned it before, I thought you all knew here after this intense discussion …
Thankyou to Laura too…
December 5, 2007 at 10:02 am
Miki, I loved your acrylics of towns….I like other categories as well. Wonderful use of color.
December 5, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Matt, you present your points very clearly, and it certainly makes my head hurt! Miki and I are about to make a short trip, and the culture of the area we’re visiting prompted me to make a short post in my blog about my interaction with different faiths. Feel free to have a look!